"Oh well apparently if you want to start an interesting debate, the SETIQuest forum isn't the place to go"

Huh?  I thought we were having an interesting debate.  I guess space frog DNA doesn't count?  I didn't like it but you should read that SETI DNA paper.  A free download version is available here http://gencodesignal.org

Too bad Douglas Vakoch hasn't commented yet on the communicating with DNA messages idea.

Some genetic experts are now saying that Junk DNA really isn't junk but it serves a purpose. They aren't sure exactly what that purpose is though.  Fascinating times ...

[11:03am] jrseti_: Hello! Sorry I am late - computer problems
[11:03am] lnigra: no worries. I've been there. in fact I'm always there :-)
[11:03am] jrseti_: http://setiquest.org/forum/topic/community-meeting-2013-05-07
[11:04am] jrseti_: Louis the only thing on the agenda
[11:04am] sigblips: 2) http://www.seti.org/seti-institute/news/seti-institute-partners-machine-...
[11:04am] sigblips: 3) https://twitter.com/setiquest/status/329259384783900673
[11:04am] sigblips: That's it for me.
[11:04am] lnigra: ok, here I go...
[11:05am] lnigra: Slowly getting the followups viewing feature done...
[11:05am] sigblips: Ohh and I forgot. Greetings Earthlings. Welcome to the 133rd weekly setiQuest IRC community meeting.
[11:06am] lnigra: looks like we can show all followup waterfalls a user participated in (classified) on the profile page tab (currently dead)...
[11:07am] lnigra: going to show the combined signal marking that produced the followup request on those thumbnails...
[11:08am] lnigra: will have a link to open a classify-like page displaying the set of waterfalls it came from and allow setizen to see the signal markings of all users and theirs highlighted in a different color...
[11:09am] lnigra: going to see if I can blink them so you can see the signal beneath all that or some other way of doing it - mouseover, buttons, etc.
[11:09am] Turingi joined the chat room.
[11:10am] lnigra: will also be able to move to the next or previous set of waterfalls in the followup chain, if it's multilevel.
[11:10am] direrra joined the chat room.
[11:11am] lnigra: probably won't have ability to browse all followups for a while after this first version is live. Just the ones the user was involved in.
[11:12am] sigblips: Which user?
[11:12am] lnigra: the person logged in - i.e., you
[11:13am] sigblips: Will you be able to see other users followup markings?
[11:15am] lnigra: yes, but other users won't be identified for now and as I mentioned, only on followups in which your markings were used to generate it and also any other followups that were part of that chain whether you classified them or not.
[11:15am] lnigra: does that make any sense?
[11:16am] sigblips: What if I didn't mark anything for the followup? My goal is to be able to use this as an audit tool.
[11:18am] lnigra: If you didn't mark anything, but you classified it, you're still part of the classification decision and will still get the followup waterfall in your profile and can link to the viewing page.
[11:19am] lnigra: also , OFF observations will also be included, so it may be that no one marked them on those, but that's the way it should be on OFFs
[11:19am] sigblips: What if I didn't classify it? If I wasn't online.
[11:20am] lnigra: Like I said, you won't be able to get to them initially. Being able to browse all followups and view them will come later.
[11:20am] lnigra: It will require a bit of work.
[11:21am] sigblips: Hmmm. ): That is going to seriously limit its usefulness for the time being.
[11:22am] lnigra: sorry
[11:22am] lnigra: you've waited this long... hehe
[11:23am] jrseti_: Sorry - i have to leave at 11:30
[11:23am] lnigra: ok, I'm done.
[11:23am] direrra: Question?
[11:23am] lnigra: sure
[11:24am] direrra: I know you can use machine language translation for documents...
[11:24am] direrra: ...how is SETI going to use it?
[11:24am] sigblips: That's the next topic.
[11:24am] sigblips: 2) http://www.seti.org/seti-institute/news/seti-institute-partners-machine-...
[11:25am] direrra: How premature of me...sorry
[11:25am] sigblips: Watch the the wonderful video with Gerry and Jon.
[11:25am] sigblips: jrseti: Is machine learning really like having a second brain? (:
[11:26am] jrseti_: That's the promise - right?
[11:26am] direrra: <---looking for part of my first brain
[11:26am] jrseti_: The video turned out really well. I credit the editor
[11:27am] lnigra: I think Mr. Fawlty found it on the floor, direrra :-)
[11:27am] direrra: Thank Goodness!
[11:27am] sigblips: The production looked very professional. Nice suit too!
[11:27am] jrseti_: thanks
[11:28am] jrseti_: About 3) https://twitter.com/setiquest/status/329259384783900673
[11:28am] lnigra: Dude, definitely nice threads, jrseti!
[11:28am] sigblips: Any SETI machine learning news / status you can report about?
[11:28am] jrseti_: I dress like that every day ;)
[11:29am] lnigra: hehe
[11:29am] jrseti_: I am still learning ML. No real progress yet - but I am leaning how to use the SkyTree software.
[11:29am] jrseti_: Lots of statistics
[11:30am] jrseti_: About 3) Who took that picture?
[11:30am] lnigra: only one criticism on production - music too loud.
[11:30am] lnigra: everything else, you two. Awesome!
[11:31am] sigblips: That picture was from the end of Jill's talk.
[11:31am] sigblips: * Gamify SETI Live and move to mobile platforms
[11:32am] jrseti_: I gotta go now - sorry - can't be avoided. About Jill's "challenge". I don't know much about it. I'll make sure she wiggles Setiquest in there somehow.
[11:32am] jrseti_: That seems like an old talk.
[11:32am] sigblips: * Data visualization that shows progress while capturing the huge dynamic range of the search.
[11:32am] sigblips: * Donate - Equipment, Time, Financial support.
[11:32am] sigblips: That talk was last Monday.
[11:32am] jrseti_: She wants SETILive on a mobile platform
[11:33am] jrseti_: I gotta bo. Bye!
[11:33am] jrseti_ left the chat room. (Remote host closed the connection)
[11:33am] lnigra: bye jrseti
[11:33am] direrra: Since jrseti just left, may I haw a room, Mr. Fawlty?
[11:33am] direrra: have
[11:34am] sigblips: Go for it.
[11:34am] lnigra: as long as you behave yourself. No unpaid guests - especially female.
[11:35am] direrra: Well, I'm sure you high-budget SETI guys know all about THAT...
[11:35am] direrra: One last question...
[11:35am] lnigra: ok
[11:36am] sigblips: I'm a zero-budget SETI guy. |:
[11:36am] direrra: If ATA is live, and only one person is on late at night/early in am, and get's a WOW! signal...
[11:37am] direrra: ...who would you phone for immediate follow-up?
[11:37am] lnigra: Wake jrseti up, I'll give you his number :-)
[11:38am] direrra: <---low probability, high impact event scenario...
[11:38am] direrra: Sure!
[11:38am] sigblips: If it passes all the ON-OFF followup tests (4 or 5) then several people at the SETI Institute will get an email. That is what I've heard.
[11:39am] lnigra: but with only one person (or three currently), a followup can't be triggered.
[11:39am] direrra: But that only works if4 people are on SETILive, right?
[11:39am] lnigra: There is a partial solution for that but only in my head right now...
[11:40am] direrra: ...and that is...
[11:40am] sigblips: SonATA could see the signal and act on it automatically. That is if the signal meets its criteria.
[11:40am] direrra: ...realizing the potential for crank calls, numerous mistaken IDs, etc., etc.
[11:41am] lnigra: SonATA doesn't look at waterfalls delivered to SETILive, so it would miss it. Here's my idea...
[11:42am] lnigra: Use the one users markings (or more users) as a guide to look for a signal in a manner similar to what SonATA does when it tries every possible straight line on the waterfall...
[11:42am] lnigra: We'd only look at one or a few in along the path the user(s) marked.
[11:43am] sigblips: Who would do this? A machine?
[11:44am] lnigra: A farily simple program running on the web server machine.
[11:44am] lnigra: er.. fairly
[11:44am] sigblips: That sounds sort of like a duplication of SonATA.
[11:45am] lnigra: Like I said, it is like what sonata does, but since SonATA never sees the waterfall, it's not a duplication at all.
[11:45am] direrra: Hmm - quick fix possible?
[11:45am] sigblips: Also several people were banned from the SETI Live forum less than a year ago for suggesting something along those lines.
[11:45am] direrra: Or do the priorities on the 'to-do' list demand attention?
[11:46am] direrra: !!!
[11:46am] Libertiny: direrra: Error: "!!" is not a valid command.
[11:46am] direrra: Yikes...
[11:47am] lnigra: sigblips, that's utter nonsense. If you think they were banned for posing suggestions, you should look back on the discussions. Sorry, but it was because certain people became and personally critical of me and others.
[11:47am] direrra: Whew!
[11:47am] direrra: <---remembers the abuse...
[11:47am] lnigra: direrra, it's definitely not on the priority list unfortunately.
[11:48am] direrra: lingra - understood
[11:48am] sigblips: Yes, you're right but that basic topic is what fueled it.
[11:48am] sigblips: Also, what you had to deal with on the SETI Live forum is nothing compared to what we had to deal with on the setiQuest forum.
[11:50am] direrra: Perhaps I've unfortunately and unintentionally exposed a sensitive topic (or two)...
[11:50am] lnigra: sure, but simply because I tried to explain that we weren't doing that at the time and why, people got all bent out of shape because they weren't there to discuss, they had an axe to grind against SI, imho, and SETILive isn't the place for that.
[11:51am] sigblips: I agree.
[11:51am] lnigra: thanks.
[11:51am] lnigra: Yup, that was a hot button, I guess, direrra. sorry.
[11:52am] direrra: Well, I think you guys are doing well, but...
[11:53am] direrra: <---pats sigblips and lingra on the back
[11:54am] sigblips: But what? You can't leave us hanging like that.
[11:54am] lnigra: where's the "but..."?
[11:54am] lnigra: yeah. do tell!
[11:54am] direrra: Bottom line...I see the issue as funding
[11:55am] direrra: ...and I'll leave it at that
[11:55am] sigblips: There is no funding and that is the problem of SETI.
[11:55am] direrra: ...bricks without straw...
[11:56am] lnigra: that's a cop out. It's always funding, isn't it. hehe.
[11:56am] lnigra: Personally, a couple full-time professional developers for a couple months would do wonders.
[11:56am] lnigra: for SETILive anyway.
[11:56am] direrra: Well, time for me to get back to my paying job...glad to be part of the discussion
[11:57am] lnigra: thanks direrra.
[11:57am] direrra left the chat room.
[11:57am] sigblips: True, but that probably isn't where the funding would be diverted to.
[11:59am] lnigra: Yes, I would think you're right. I'm hoping that if we can get SETILive turned over to SI, they'll put some resources into improving it as part of "gamify-ing" it.
[12:00pm] sigblips: That costs money ...
[12:00pm] lnigra: maybe summer interns?
[12:01pm] lnigra: SI may have an interest in doing something with it, though, even if only applying limited resources. Anything would be good.
[12:02pm] sigblips: A new rule I heard was that the REU interns are required to be doing something science-y.
[12:03pm] sigblips: We had a setiQuest REU intern a couple years ago.
[12:03pm] lnigra: Ah, I see. there are probably some legit science-y tasks that could be defined that would also benefit SETILive.
[12:04pm] sigblips: Maybe but I think they are thinking more pure science as opposed to code development.
[12:05pm] lnigra: Gotcha.
[12:05pm] lnigra: So beyond just science-y :-)
[12:06pm] sigblips: GSoC would be an ideal intern source for this sort of thing.
[12:07pm] lnigra: Yes, from what I know of it. Didn't some of SonATA or related stuff come out of that?
[12:07pm] sigblips: Yes, setiQuest had two GSoC interns a couple years ago. Mentoring them was a lot of work.
[12:08pm] lnigra: Summer intern projects are real difficult. Hard to define something that can be accomplished in two months and yet can be carried on afterwards if needed.
[12:09pm] sigblips: Yup.
[12:09pm] lnigra: We'll have four (I think) this summer in Far Horizons at Adler. We're already trying to work these things out.
[12:10pm] sigblips: Who is the sponsoring source?
[12:10pm] sigblips: I think the REU's were NSF.
[12:11pm] lnigra: I believe ours are all Illinois Space Grant Consortium, which is NASA-funded.
[12:12pm] lnigra: Yes, REU is a NSF program. Excellent program as well, btw. Lots of scientists get a great start with that.
[12:12pm] sigblips: This summer is probably safe but I wonder about next summer. With the sequester and all.
[12:13pm] lnigra: good question. All we can do is wait. Clearly, voting doesn't help :-)
[12:13pm] sigblips: You gotta love politics. (:
[12:13pm] lnigra: true dat.
[12:14pm] lnigra: Well, time to get back to work. Good talking with you as usual. Sorry about my little snit earlier.
[12:15pm] sigblips: No problem. Those were difficult times.
[12:15pm] lnigra: See you next week.
[12:15pm] sigblips: Bye.
[12:15pm] lnigra left the chat room. (Quit: Leaving)

After outlining this idea to my Son he tells me that I am describing a technique already proven in his field of Computational Chemistry, apparently they can take sections of DNA and undertake an analysis based upon the statistical "information metrics" ( presumably Entropy creeps in somewhere), and are able to determine whether that chunk of DNA will express a Protein, or is simply a chunk of Junk DNA.

He tells me that if you compare the amount of the Genetic Code that actually produces something useful, compared to the amount of Junk, then there is very little doubt that the Genetic information has evolved - or if it has  actually been designed, he wouldn't offer the designer a job working for him

Oh well apparently if you want to start an interesting debate, the SETIQuest forum isn't the place to go

Regards

Dave Robinson

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