Perhaps when considering the aquisition of technology by an alien civilization, we must also postulate the mind-set of that species. Must it be the signature of all intelligent creatures throughout the cosmos to communicate through electromagnetic waveband, or for that matter any other range of electromagnetic frequencies? Since the distance between such beings is immense and the time required to communicate via radio waves may be of great and impractical orders of magnitude, might they have come up with a viable method of traversing space/time? Are there waves of another sort which are independent of space and time? Using some yet undiscovered dimensionality theory, are there beings capable of instant communication no matter how far apart they may be? Have they learned to project their thoughts through wormholes or black holes? Could it be that once we have truly mastered the art of mind-reading that we will have discovered the true Universal Language: Mental Telepathy?
Good questions. I think the obvious answer is we do not know. Could it be that we watch too much science fiction and that those types of things are not possible?
On the SETI signal search projects, we are open to the idea that we may be listening to the wrong frequencies, or to the wrong types of frequencies, or that radio is not even what a distant, more advanced, civilization would use.
Here is what I think: If a distant civilization is so advanced and has a master of the techniques you mention. they would probably still broadcast in the frequency ranges we are listening and broadcast the simplest signal they could. They would have the wisdom that they would need to keep it simple if the rest of the galaxy is not as smart as them.
There may be a rule of thumb implanted in the genome of each Alien Species which enables it to conceive of an infinite array of possible outcomes or events in the Universe. What is mind boggling: no matter what the probability is of realizing any one of them, given enough time and the right conditions, each and every one of them may be attainable. Whatever or whoever it is which programmed these thoughts into the DNA seems to have provided a way to transform them from the realm of the fictional, into the reality of the factual. Perhaps we may learn that the children of the BIG BANG share some sort of symbiotic relationship which was intended to ensure their ultimate survival in the COSMOS.
From an Alien Perspective, we may not yet qualify for entry into the Galactic Association. Only when we work together as a species for the common good, earthwide, might our eyes be unstopped so that we might see clearly the path to solving the SETI Problem . Only then, might this deafening silence be broken. It may be that there is a Universal Law built into the genes of every intelligent life form which allows entry past the "firewall" only when we have purged ourselves from every vestige of "viral infection": hatreds, divisions, war, poverty, atrocities.
I agree. The state of our technology may be so infantile that we may be getting signals of some type blasted at us all the time, but we have no hope of detecting them for several thousand more years.
But let's hope they are sending something in the 1 to 10 GHz range for now. Maybe we can detect the TV and radio carriers they radiated hundreds of years ago before they got into the Galactic Association.
"There may be a rule of thumb implanted in the genome of each Alien Species which enables it to conceive of an infinite array of possible outcomes or events in the Universe. What is mind boggling: no matter what the probability is of realizing any one of them, given enough time and the right conditions, each and every one of them may be attainable. "
If the Multiverse interpretation of Quantum mechanics is right, this is exactly what does happen; every possible outcome of an experiment leads to a different 'Universe' those of which are so similar as to make no diference will effectively remerge, generating the so called interference patterns, such as found in the multiple slit experiments. It doesn't need an alien mind to conceive of the outcome; it happens anyway.
My own feeling about cosmic firewalls, requires the action of an ultimate designer, who at time t=0 decided to build into life these fundemental limitations; and whilst not one to state outright that this might not have happened, feel that Occams razor requires us to hang on to the concept of totally independent evolutionary paths of any lifeforms that have formed until we have evidence that the intelligent designer theory has a lot more evidence to back it up - as Mrs Beeton might have put it - first catch your alien. We must keep an open mind until we have a lot more evidence.
What intrigues me is that experimentation which is showing that Neutrino's have an embedded oscillation built into them. Now this would make a quite sensible communication medium, as these particles are far less suceptible to absorption than most EM photons, and could easily travel across intergalactic distaces, without suffering much attenuation. Maybe our technology for detecting them is still pretty stoneage having to use a swimming pool full of dry cleaning fluid; however when we eventually find a fast simple method of detecting them; I would not be too surprised to find some of them carrying some form of intelligent modulation in the way that they oscillate between states.
+1 for Mrs. Beeton!! We have the understanding of physics that we have, and we do what we can with that. At the SETI Institute we reserve the right to get smarter and to use technologies-yet-to-be-invented, if and when they make sense. For now we are faced with the last sentence of the 1959 Cocconi and Morrison paper "The probablility of success is difficult to estimate, but if we never search, the chance of success is zero."
There are some other neutrino detectors coming on-line, in particular IceCube and AMANDA. I’ve asked some of my Berkeley colleagues who are on the IceCube team whether they would be sensitive to the neutrino signals suggested by Silagadze, 2008. They concur with Paul Gilster’s blog that it would just be possible.
Thanks for pointing me in the direction of this work. Although I guess it is obvious; I hadn't realized that Neutrino SETI had been seriously considered. I obviously have a lot more background reading to investigate. I really appreciate you putting yourself out to respond to these discussion threads.
If aliens indeed transmitted radio waves indiscriminately in the frequency band you mention during their early technology development, then we will only detect them during the few centuries of their existence when they did so (delayed my however many light years they are away from us). They may have passed that point in time millions of years ago. The probability that the few centuries of their early development overlap with our century of early technology development on a cosmic scale is minuscule.
It is a much more probable assumption that intelligent aliens in THIS galaxy that we CAN detect are far more advanced than us. I'm assuming that our current technology has a very hard time detecting intelligent life in other galaxies (please correct me if I am misinformed here). Conversely IF we were the most advanced species in this galaxy (which is possible), then for the same reason as above statistically speaking they would be so far behind us as not to leave a (technology) signature yet. Hence SETI would indeed be a waste of time.
So SETI only makes sense if it attempts to detect a more advanced alien species. If we assume more advanced beings are at least as curious as we are then they ALREADY discovered US!! So SETI search gets a whole other meaning. It is about making aliens WANT to talk to US!
Any good alien scientist would first observe us (first remotely, then by sending probes, maybe eventually even visiting if they possess the technology to do so) trying to learn as much about us BEFORE they contact us. A good observation needs to remain undetected for as long as possible to be of any value. If the roles are reversed we would (or at least should) do the same.
Certain events could trigger the aliens dropping that pretext and wanting to contact us. See my post under 'why have we not been contacted' on thoughts how we might influence that.
Lets not forget the idea of sillicon based, intelligent life. where you are only allowed in to the galactic association if your density is of a certain count.
I recently read an article about what the laws of physics say about the limits of computation - silicon for now, probably more exotic stuff in future. Claim is the the ultimate laptop with size of 1 m and volume of l liter, would have max of 10^51 ops and memory of 10^31 bits. One drawback is that it would require a black hole to power it - that sort of negates the 'lap' aspect :-)
Staggering orders of magnitude for the silicon limitation albeit the power specs required! A heavy topic indeed!
On this fabric of exotic stuff : Is this the essence of the Ether Substance (Dark Matter) about which volumes of scientific journals have pondered? Einstein thought it was important enough to give it his serious consideration in his address on 'Ether and the Theory of Relativity' delivered on May 5th, 1920 at the University of Leyden. Adopting the principle of Occam's Razor which promotes the simplest approach, are we ready for the next quantum leap in our notions of the very fabric of space/time? Does the Ether Theory warrant some serious revision?
Imagine that the driving force behind Universal Expansion manifests itself as one which acts upon this Dark Matter
which, in turn, exerts pressure upon some Membrane we call Space. If the creation of Dark Matter is constant, and, the driving force is continually applied, then observation might reveal an expanding Universe at an accelerated rate in all directions. Also, we might observe a uniform density in matter and energy on a Cosmic level.
Here is the thrust of my idea: If we could detect and learn to act upon this Membrane of Space which permeates in all directions and locations throughout the Cosmos, we might be able to propagate a "waveform" through it that could travel at greater than light speeds. Imagine now that:
V = λf - where V is the velocity of our waveform, λ is its wavelength, and f is the frequency of propagation.
Its a wild thought, but what if λ turns out to be of great orders of magnitude and that the velocities permitted are much greater than 2.98 x 10^5 km/s, say, 10^6 km/s!
Modulate that wave, polarize it, and it may be possible to communicate across the Milky Way, in any direction, in a flash! Might this be the as yet undetected form of communication constantly bombarding us from our 'BIG BANG COUSINS' surrounding us?
Maybe we should be sending probes to the nearest blackhole to see if we can find any laptop with size of 1 m and volume of l liter. Maybe we can finally solve the ultimate question: 'which is truly better? The Mac or the PC.'
according to that line of logic , there is someone on earth always flashing a mirror into the sky, using morse code to try to communicate with intelligent life. :p
If u want an alien civilisation to know we are here then just hop on one leg, blink twice and shout: 'I'm not here, I'm over there.' (Which is the nearest translation to 'good morning Mr alien')
I'm being silly, yes but logic is how humans, understand the universe. maybe to communicate across the universe, we'd need to percieve the universe in a way that is completly inconcievable to a human mind. maybe we would need completly different senses to see the universe at a 'different angle', inorder to find the common form of communication across galaxies or from star to star. Perhaps our minds are incapable of percieveing the response.
Perhaps a response is being translated for us as I type this note, with much work on the part of the patient alien callers.
Perhaps they are massageing our brains into understanding how to communicate through the folds of time and space because they are stareing into our faces everyday but we can't percieve the state of which they exsist.
Ask a 2 year old child how to build a house.
The universe is big and old. much older than us. If we want to make contact, I say we make like the babies that we are and just make as much noise as we can in as many ways as we can imagine. Nevermind trying to show them we are smart. Let them figure that out, just be as un-normal (Ie: not like the rest of the universe) as we can. Build something complicated or big, quickly. Blow somthing up in an unusual way. Do stuff that is percieveably unusual. Heck, it doesn't have to be big. Just unusual.
In fact, I wonder if making that little blackhole for a tiny moment will be our best communication yet. Who Knows? Just Keep making different noises people!!!!!
Ever notice that we humans have this pattern, "thumbprint", time and again that we learn to do things the hard way before we learn to do them in a much simpler/ practical/ effective way? Look at the evolution of technology: vacuum tubes to transistors to integrated circuitry... There are literally thousands of other examples that could be cited to illustrate this point.
For that matter, ever experience a situation where trying to achieve/ do / think of something in an "illogical" way turns out to be the most "logical" method? Richard.S23, your point is well taken. Perhaps we do need to learn to see the universe from a different perspective - at some "oblique angle". Perhaps the human mindset is as yet incapable of recognizing the patterns "staring" us in the face - the communication they are sending out amongst themselves.
You are most insightful: It may be effective to just make as much "noise" as possible in as many different combinations and permutations as we can think of. Could it be that exhibiting as much "abnormal" behavior as we can possibly create, that we will get their attention somehow? Creating that "black hole" at the Cern Experiment may be the "spark" which gets their attention.
Just do the "illogical"! We are specialists at making "silly noises". We are even better at "slapstick". Let's make like the true "babies" we are in the Cosmos in anticipation that they will fancy to come "play" with us!
I wonder if 'the wheel' started as a square then moved on to a hexagon and then eventually some bright, hairy spark just decided, hey?! lets just get ride of the pointy bits altogether! :p
I once worked for an ill tempered (is there any other type) chef who had a saying for everytime I made a mistake: 'God makes us, then he puts us together.' (muttered under his breath, of course, with a slowly shaking head...) Something to consider... perhaps we are made in Gods image after all. :) Look at evolution and to rip off an old favorite joke: the platypus. :)
I've got a curious thought: If an alien species had faster than light travel or communication. or even instant travel or communication; if they were to get our current, intended signals, it would still be a long long time before they hear us...therefore a long time before we hear from them. Unless they happen to be locals. in which case, they probably noticed all the space junk we've left on our front lawn lately... everytime they look out they're equivilent of a telescope/window.
Another thought, didnt einstein postulate that it would be possible to create a machine to see the past but we could not go there and that we could not see the future because it hasn't happened yet. :)
When 2 photons hit eachother, they briefly create something that time does not exsist in... What happens if you bounce 2 of those tiny black holes together? seriously, does anyone have any ideas on what would happen? Is effects or if it is even possible? I mean, how does a blackhole work... does it ever expand? I'm assuming,no, considering we are intending to make one underground...oh... ok... just remembered... thats the whole point of cern... well, I guess, the jury is out on that question until later...
The very nature of life, as we know it, is competitive.... are we sure we really do want to make alot of noise? I'm a pessimist in that I'm convinced truly alien will be something that will terrify us. Kindness is not a universal law... it is our little tiny social law of equity. what if the alien species did not at all believe in the slow down effect of mercy because, well, it got it, quicker than us to begin with.... I just think when approaching something alien, it is always in our favor to approach with caution. Or we can just go fly a planetary kite with a key on it....
- Fortune may favor the bold but look how that worked out for the romans.
(just thought I'd stir the blog pot a bit...)
Music.... music and sounds.... patterns.....Hi! I'm Troy Maclure! Modulations and pitchs attract the attention of many animals.
An interesting point to nibble over is that a dog will be completly unbothered by loud gunshots on TV or the distressed screams of Jeniffer hustin (If I spelt it wrong; I don't particularly care.) while the one armed serial killer from beyond the grave chases her. BUT! put on the afternoon television show, even with the volume low, with a dog barking on it and hey presto, ur dog goes nuts.
A bird will tweet to another bird but it wont tweet back unless its of the same breed.(At least I think thats how it works, ornithologists of the world, forgive me, if I'm wrong.)
Musical tastes vary widely amoung just one spieces(our own, of course...), so why do we assume that we will attract their attention with patterns that make sense to our 'logical' wireing.
MAKE NOISE! NOT LOVE-ly sounds that ring true to a scientists ears!
Our sentience, like any other operating system, is only as useful as the compatibility of the software when attempting to create a connection with another OS.
First step: make noise. ( let them ping us.)
Second step: make contact.
Third step: figure out how to play pacman with them.
Lets just hope their survival instinct isnt a simple case of 'If it bleeds; we can kill it!' (But at the crutch of whatever their social stratum and theology is, I'm sure it is exactly that: conform or die. I suppose, realistically it will be a broad stratum from kill it! it moves! kill it! To 'can we keep it mum! Please! with the boring ones in the middle who are the universes MTV generation:' whatever, just don't get in my face.'
...And that their driving force isn't too much like ours 'I wonder what happens if... oh, to heck with it! No one ever got anywhere traveling at relativistic speeds!'
I suppose the most likely surviveing ancient intellegent species will be like the sloath. surrounded by predatory species but thriving, always dreaming, behind the curtain of minimal activity with the alien/outside world. LOL maybe darkmatter is the equivelent of an extraterestial form of intelligent sloath-like life. So far advanced that it has found the ultimate form of self preservation: Be something no one can figure out. :)
I mean, we wouldnt even know if E.T. was offering us his version of a hand shake. The history of first contact has never been smooth sailing. The lack of prudence; to study, identify and extrapolate, being the achilles heel of the explorers of the past.
If they've heard us, they will probably study us first before to attempt to say hello.
But again, thats human logic, not alien...
Maybe they will make it rain purple then place beside the resting place of every sentient creature(and all animals that are under 2 meters in hieght -just in case.) on the planet, a tiny piece of meteor. Their way of saying, I just ate something that doesnt agree with me. Which was the decided universal way of making first contact with another sentient species because, well, one guy came up with it and it seemed to work out ok so far.... Except for the intelligent plants... well most of them....but thats a whole other story.
I like how the black hole has become less intimidating as a result of finding out that the universe is ever expanding. lol Catch us if you can!!!! :)
If I were an Alien Species traversing the known Universe, or Multi-Verse for that matter, and I had a policy of leaving behind time capsules pointing to some physical location as a rendezvous point, what would be my method(s) of doing so? Would I just bury some kind of transmitting device? Would I alter some physical characteristic of some astronomical object? Would I create some unique astronomical event? Could I alter any of the physical "laws" of the cosmos?
Well, I wouldn't bury the stuff, considering how plate techtonics would likely crush your diamond-hard coating like peanut butter.
Seth Shostak has suggested that one should leave a marker in one of the Lagrange points (gravity stable orbit between earth and sun, or earth and moon). Such an object would probably stay there for hundreds of millions of years. Already people have attempted to "look" in those regions by bouncing radar signals off of potential artifacts, but if it is smaller than an 18-wheeler, we wouldn't have seen it (yet).
One idea I had is to leave a unique object orbiting around the planet in question. Like a Moon! The Moon's origin is not entirely understood, and appears to have come from an exceptionally rare collision between earth and another planet (possibly Mars). Or it could be a sign that we should study the moon more closely to look for alien origins. The problem with this method is that coincidences happen, so proving the Moon is a message is kind of like proving the existence of angels.
If they can really travel the multiverse, then to us they will look like God. In that case, how about creating a goldilocks universe that isn't expanding or contracting too quickly, has only 3 spatial dimensions + time (that exceed a given lengthscale), and has force constants that allow chemistry to happen? In that case, there's a good chance that life and even intelligent life will evolve. Perhaps the message of "creation" would be a good way of leaving a message behind. Wait! I just invented "intelligent design!"
Anyway, the flaw in that approach is the same as that for the Moon. In an infinite multiverse, coincidences are not only likely, they are certainty!
L4 could be a good storage location. The setiQuest project has collected several Lagrange-4 datasets and they are available at the http://setiquest.org/wiki/index.php/SetiQuest_Data_Links target list or directly here:
An interesting signal was found in the 3991 MHz L4 dataset. Here are two links to the forum discussions about it:
This signal is still a mystery.
The table below shows the location of a number of Wonders of the World which line up. It has been speculated that the Architects were Alien in origin. If so, why would they go to great lengths to align these structures? Is there some intentional message contained here? Could these visitors have speculated that some day we would develop the intellect to unravel their puzzle?
I have this idea which keeps reverberating in my mind. What if the latitude and longitude coordinates of these sites which line up were representative, by implicaton, of video and audio frequencies which Aliens broadcast on? Look at the following link to the Television Frequency Table which humans broadcast on and consider whether the correlations I have made in the table below are worth investigating. http://www.csgnetwork.com/tvfreqtable.html
Correlated Chart of Alien T.V.
|Location of Wonder||Latitude||Longitude||Video Frequency (MHz)||Audio Frequency (MHz)|
|Giza||29° 59' N||31° 09' E||29.59||31.09|
|Siwa||29° 14' N||25° 31' E||29.14||25.31|
|Tassili n'Ajjer||26° 32' N||9° 50' E||26.32||9.50|
|Paratoari||12° 48' S||71° 25' W||12.48||71.25|
|Ollantaytambo||13° 15' S||72° 16' W||13.15||72.16|
|Machupicchu||13° 06' S||72° 35' W||13.06||72.35|
|Nazca||14° 42' S||75° 06' W||14.42||75.06|
|Easter Island||27° 06' S||109° 20' W||27.06||109.20|
|Aneityum Island||20° 10' S||169° 48' E||20.10||169.48|
|Preah Vihear||14° 24' N||104° 40' E||14.24||104.40|
|Sukhothai||17° 01' N||99° 42' E||17.01||99.42|
|Pyay||19° 15' N||95° 05' E||19.15||95.05|
|Khajuraho||24° 51' N||79° 56' E||24.51||79.56|
|Mohenjo Daro||27° 15' N||68° 17' E||27.15||68.17|
|Persepolis||29° 56' N||52° 55' E||29.56||52.55|
|Ur||30° 57' N||46° 07' E||30.57||46.07|
|Petra||30° 19' N||35° 28' E||30.19||36.28|
The circle is arguably a common construct for any intelligent civilization, and somewhere else dividing by the equivalent of 60 might have led to degrees and minutes of arc. However, the second is a construct based on the rotation period of Earth and has no claim to cosmic commonality. Although the second is now defined in terms of the emission of Cesium 133, it was originally defined by the length of a day and the same division by factors of 60 to yield hours, minutes, and seconds. Therefore the correspondence of numbers for latitude and longitude with frequencies measured in multiples of Hz (cycles per second) has no universality. I find it pretty insulting to our ancient ancestors to suggest that they needed alien architects to oversee the construction of wonderous monuments. We may not understand why they built what they did, but we can understand how they did it, on their own.
Thank you Jill for taking the time out to respond to my unfounded comments, and, especially, for setting me straight on the "non-universality" of my numeric transpositions. I see your sound - logical - reasoning on the unit of the second as being indigenous to our planet earth, thereby discrediting the idea that degrees of longitude and latitude could be haphazardly "converted" to frequencies of waveband. I apologize for having inadvertently offended you by refering to a proposition from online sources that Alien Architects were the authors of these Ancient Constructs . My leaning, too, is to give credit to our distant ancestors for their masterful and yet hitherto undiscovered methods.