[11:00am] jrseti_: Hello all it is 11am California time.
[11:01am] sigblips: Greetings.
[11:01am] Jill joined the chat room.
[11:02am] khrm joined the chat room.
[11:02am] jrseti_: I'm sorry to day that I won't have time to participate in the IRC chat today! I am actively working with the Zooniverse people to get the real-time followups to work in the SETILive program. We only have 50 more minutes of telescope time.
[11:03am] jrseti_: Leash: We are actively trying to get the attention of Jonathan Fay at MWWT.
[11:03am] jrseti_: Karen sent him an email this morning. We may want him to help us spotlight MWWT at SETICon
[11:03am] leash: Can you forward me any correspondance?
[11:03am] jrseti_: Yes I will
[11:04am] leash: Okay. I will keep working on a tour. Let me know if you have time to update the list.
[11:04am] jrseti_: Anyone want to carry onthe conversation while I go off to my other project?
[11:05am] sigblips: OK, what would we like to talk about today?
[11:05am] sigblips: 1) Broken buttons on all setiQuest web pages.
[11:05am] sigblips: 2) setiQuest goals
[11:06am] Jill: i can continue for a while
[11:06am] sigblips: Is there anything you would like to talk about?
[11:07am] khrm: What is broken buttons? Can you give me aan example?
[11:07am] Jill: i'd like to understand what community is really out there besides those of us on this chat
[11:08am] sigblips: 3) Who is the setiQuest community?
[11:09am] Jill: so who is here today?
[11:10am] khrm: I, sigblips , leash you and ???
[11:10am] sigblips: That's it. Everyone else is either a bot or a lurker.
[11:11am] sigblips: OK, let's get started with 1) Broken buttons on all setiQuest web pages.
[11:11am] Jill: who has a list, and who can fix?
[11:12am] sigblips: Take a look at the Twitter, Facebook, Flickr, RSS, and Donate on the bottom of the main setiQuest.org page and on the left side of all the other setiQuest.org pages.
[11:12am] Jill: are they all broken?
[11:13am] sigblips: The Twitter and Facebook buttons go to the SETI Institute pages. The Twitter should go to https://twitter.com/#!/setiquest
[11:13am] sigblips: The Flickr page is completely empty.
[11:13am] sigblips: The RSS page works.
[11:14am] sigblips: And the Donate page is Not Found.
[11:14am] Jill: well it's hard to solicit funding support if the donate page is an error.
[11:15am] Jill: does Jon have to fix this or is it Michael or you?
[11:15am] sigblips: This doesn't make a good first impression on new setiQuest members. Either Jon or Michael can fix this.
[11:17am] khrm: Donate one is not working correctly but twitter one is working for me.
[11:17am] sigblips: That Twitter feed is the general SETI Institute page and not the setiQuest one.
[11:17am] Jill: i just sent Jon an email asking him to fix these buttons
[11:18am] khrm: Yes.
[11:18am] sigblips: OK, next topic.
[11:18am] sigblips: 2) setiQuest goals http://setiquest.org/forum/topic/what-do-we-want-accomplish-setiquest
[11:19am] sigblips: Those are all good and important things to do but I'm not sure that they are really goals.
[11:20am] khrm: O.k
[11:20am] Jill: and they do not seem to have elicited any responses on the forum
[11:21am] khrm: I have open that topic an hour ago only.
[11:21am] sigblips: It was posted this morning.
[11:21am] Jill: ah.. sorry i didn't catch the date
[11:21am] sigblips: Can Jill's TED wish be a goal?
[11:22am] leash: What is the primary function of setiQuest, now that SETILive is running?
[11:22am] Jill: seems to me that setiQuest itself was an attempt to deliver the wish --- get the world actively involved
[11:23am] Jill: so 1) we've published the code --- what do we want the world to do with it?
[11:24am] sigblips: I think the issue is "what does the world want to do with the code." I mean the code is very specialized.
[11:24am] Jill: 2) we'd like to have folks IMPROVING the algorithms, but so far those that have started have not been able to push to a conclusion to demo the benefits
[11:25am] Jill: ah... but how does the world know it's there unless we draw attention to it and ask for help.
[11:26am] sigblips: The technicalities of improving the algorithms in SonATA, testing them, and getting the patch approved is enormous.
[11:28am] khrm: is it due to git? But others are also at same level of complexities.
[11:29am] khrm: * other scm
[11:29am] Jill: the testing could be joint activity, but developing the algorithm is something that needs to be done by someone who has DSP expertise. Ian Morrison came in and developed SWAC
[11:30am] sigblips: Git is fine. The patches need to be approved by a person with commit access.
[11:32am] Jill: algorithms can be developed stand alone first using data and machines in the cloud --- patch is a lot later, or am i crossing threads here?
[11:33am] Jill: btw - what does it mean to have bots and lurkers associated with this chat?
[11:34am] sigblips: Jill: Yes, the DSP expertise is a hurdle and the patches are later but the processing pipeline needs to be in place.
[11:35am] Jill: what processing pipeline?
[11:35am] sigblips: The lurkers are just people who are watching this channel and don't say anything. Klaatu is our friendly logbot.
[11:36am] sigblips: I meant a pipeline for discussing and accepting code patches. We have no working pipeline.
[11:36am] khrm: http://catb.org/jargon/html/L/lurker.html
[11:37am] Jill: how do i interpret the fact that their are bots and lurkers? does it mean there is really more of a community than we think? what's the return on having a bot watch this chat unless you have some interest?
[11:37am] Jill: it wasn't the meaning of the terms, it's what i should conclude from the fact that they are here.
[11:38am] sigblips: Some of the lurkers maybe read this conversations. In the past occasionally they have chimed in.
[11:39am] khrm: Yes, devon, Turingi and welterde have posted or delurked here.
[11:39am] Jill: so how are we doing with turning khrm's list into goals?
[11:40am] sigblips: I guess lurkers are a lot like SETI. We (Earth) are lurkers in that we are trying to detect SETI but we don't transmit a beacon and are trying to engage in conversation.
[11:40am] khrm: Doesn't know about akssps011 and quaid.
[11:41am] Jill: does the setiQuest community want to be come actively involved over the debate about METI? M=messaging
[11:41am] welterde: Jill: usually bots are not for "watching" the channel, but doing stuff - like posting the "title" of an posted link or something like that ;-)
[11:42am] sigblips: Remember the Gliese581 bot?
[11:42am] khrm: Where has it gone?
[11:42am] Jill: understood, but are the bots that are here now put there by us or someone else?
[11:43am] welterde: ah.. probably rebooted again and forgot to restart it
[11:43am] sigblips: Jill: Some of both.
[11:43am] leash: The SEITquest community is small, and there's not a strong channel of discussion flow.
[11:44am] leash: Where can the community rally?
[11:44am] Jill: so we go back to the question of whether there is interest in setiQuest that we aren't specifically aware of.
[11:45am] Jill: hi Leash - how small? do we know?
[11:45am] sigblips: This IRC channel is idle almost all the time except for the weekly community meeting. I log in now and then and no one is here to chat.
[11:45am] leash: Going off forum activity, I can only guess that it's small. Many of the posts are from repeat users.
[11:45am] sigblips: I suspect that there is a large number of people who read the setiQuest forum regularly but don't post.
[11:46am] welterde: sigblips: I am here most of the time ;-)
[11:46am] sigblips: We should chat more. (:
[11:46am] welterde: :)
[11:46am] Jill: welterde: i didn't know that
[11:46am] welterde: hmm.. gliese581 is unable to connect
[11:49am] gliese581c joined the chat room.
[11:49am] sigblips: setiQuest has a large number of communication channels. http://setiquest.org/wiki/index.php/setiquest_wiki:Community_portal
[11:49am] gliese581c: Title: setiquest wiki:Community portal - setiquest wiki (at setiquest.org)
[11:49am] khrm: I have not visited some of the channels in past 4-5 monts where I was regular When I will start again i will become more regular.
[11:50am] welterde: Jill: and as an physics student I am mostly interested in getting access to some raw data to do stuff.. if that helps answering your question before
[11:50am] Turingi: khrm: oh, not a lurker, just this channel is not very active, so I'm not following it very much :)
[11:50am] Turingi: pretty amazed to see the actual Jill Tartar here though
[11:51am] khrm: Turingi Actually we have regular meeting on Tuesday.
[11:51am] Turingi: the reason I was here was a while ago asking about the effective range of SETI's detecting efforts
[11:51am] Jill: welterde: - there are about 8 TB of raw data in the cloud just for that purpose
[11:51am] Turingi: something like 1000 light years given a radio civilisation like Earth's present, if we know where to look?
[11:51am] sigblips: It is an honor. If more people knew Jill was here I'd bet more people would show up to talk.
[11:51am] welterde: oh? 8TB already.. should check in more often
[11:52am] sigblips: It's 4 TB but that is still a lot.
[11:53am] Jill: all last year we dedicated Friday afternoons to direct to disk recording. some of the earlier files have formatting problems. ask sigblips - he's looked at it all
[11:53am] sigblips: http://setiquest.org/wiki/index.php/SetiQuest_Data_Links
[11:53am] gliese581c: Title: SetiQuest Data Links - setiquest wiki (at setiquest.org)
[11:53am] Jill: back to goals ...
[11:53am] sigblips: And I'm still looking at it. There are a lot of gems in that data.
[11:54am] Turingi: so now that you mention it, khrm: "What is the time in which the 1000 ly detection radius could be exhausted, assuming a reasonable increase in observation capacity?"
[11:54am] Turingi: i.e. what would be a timeframe in which all Earth-like radio civs could be ruled out, given a radius of 1000 ly
[11:54am] khrm: Yes. I think we can publicise that. (Jill being here) Also in the topic chan operator should write about the meeting.
[11:57am] sigblips: My personal setiQuest goal is rather lofty. I want to be able to detect SETI. That requires a live multi-beam data feed, control issues, and other stuff ...
[11:57am] Jill: 1000 ly contains a few million stars we might wish to interrogate over 1 to 10 GHz. if we put in Moore's law extrapolation (which we are falling behind due to lack of funding for new processors) we should be able to get through that in a decade.
[11:58am] leash: On that note, I will talk to everyone next week.
[11:58am] leash left the chat room. (Quit: Page closed)
[11:59am] khrm: Why would we rule out earth like civs? Civs mean civilisation ?
[11:59am] Jill: i've got to hit the road too. take aways - enunciate goals crisply/characterize our community/assess the degree of overlap
[12:00pm] welterde: sigblips: hmm.. and I have access to some large storage and fast machines at my university.. might do some fun stuff with the data..
[12:00pm] khrm: http://setiquest.org/forum/topic/what-do-we-want-accomplish-setiquest
[12:00pm] gliese581c: Title: What do we want to accomplish with setiQuest? | setiQuest (at setiquest.org)
[12:00pm] Turingi: khrm: given that we're a young civilisation, our radio output is not what a supposedly more advanced civ have, however it may be that advanced civs are just using higher frequency bands (like optical or higher) to communicate, and those narrow beams may be difficult to detect
[12:00pm] Jill: i think Turingi meant that we could say whether or not there's a 21st century Earth-analog present.
[12:01pm] Turingi: ^^
[12:01pm] sigblips: welterde: A bunch of data, some fast machines, some coding expertise, and a dream is all you need. (:
[12:01pm] Jill: welterde: AWS has provided the machine instances and storage so you can work in the cloud
[12:01pm] Jill left the chat room. (Quit: Page closed)
[12:02pm] welterde: sigblips: 20kb/s.. that's not very good...
[12:02pm] sigblips: Is that your Internet speed or is that the sampling rate (bandwidth)?
[12:03pm] welterde: sigblips: that's the speed I am getting downloading say http://setiquest.sigblips.com/download/2010-09-24-goes-11_2/2010-09-24-g...
[12:04pm] sigblips: Hmmm, what sort of speed do you get from something like http://speedtest.net ?
[12:04pm] gliese581c: Title: Speedtest.net - The Global Broadband Speed Test (at speedtest.net)
[12:04pm] welterde: sigblips: gigabit
[12:05pm] sigblips: Hmmm, when I download the setiQuest data it saturates my 16 Mbps cable modem. I'll look into it.
[12:05pm] khrm: I am getting 48kbps but thats normal for me.
[12:05pm] welterde: lets see if my home connection does better
[12:06pm] welterde: it does.. 1Mb/s.. interesting
[12:07pm] welterde: seems like the route the DFN (german research network) has to you is not that good
[12:08pm] welterde: sigblips: what route does your cable isp take?
[12:08pm] sigblips: The setiQuest server should be capable of about 50 MB/sec which is limited by AWS's EBS disk speeds.
[12:08pm] khrm: are you all talking in bits or bytes?
[12:08pm] sigblips: B=bytes b=bits
[12:09pm] welterde: * 1MB/s then at my home isp ;)
[12:10pm] khrm: Oh then I am getting in 384 kbps.
[12:10pm] sigblips: welterde: A traceroute shows that the most of my California to Virginia transit is over level3.net
[12:11pm] welterde: hmm.. DFN goes via level3 as well..
[12:13pm] welterde: sigblips: can you traceroute from the setiquest server to my box ( pproc0.informatik.tu-muenchen.de or so..) ?
[12:13pm] Turingi: you may be traffic-shaped by the ISP itself
[12:13pm] Turingi: some traffic can be flagged as p2p and pushed to a lower tier
[12:14pm] welterde: neither the DFN, nor the LRZ, nor my university nor we do
[12:15pm] sigblips: welterde: OK, the traceroute after a couple hops is out of AWS and then on telia.net for 8 hops and then to dfn.de and then gatekeeper.informatik.tu-muenchen.de
[12:16pm] welterde: sigblips: ok.. let me place an large file somewhere and lets see if telia is to blame
[12:16pm] Turingi: downloading that file at 1MB/s easily
[12:17pm] welterde: at home 1MB/s as well..
[12:18pm] khrm: 48 KB/s
[12:18pm] welterde: sigblips: http://www5.in.tum.de/test/blah
[12:20pm] sigblips: wget 2012-04-24 19:19:39 (7.11 MB/s) - “blah” saved [217055232/217055232]
[12:21pm] welterde: really is AWS -> telia -> DFN to blame then :/
[12:23pm] welterde: sigblips: you should get yourself an server that's inside internet2 or some other research network ;-)
[12:24pm] sigblips: Internet2, I wish. I'm surprised AWS wasn't faster than 7 MBps.
[12:24pm] welterde: from my server I get about 1.5 MB/s
[12:30pm] Turingi: what percentage of the useful radio space would you say is unused but reserved or made unavailable?
[12:31pm] Turingi: for communication
[12:31pm] Turingi: spectrum-wise mainly
[12:33pm] sigblips: welterde: What is in that blah file? It looks like uniform white noise to me. I'm trying different encodings now. Any hints?
[12:35pm] sigblips: Turingi: I don't have a good answer. I think most of it is allocated. I like this site: http://reboot.fcc.gov/spectrumdashboard/searchSpectrum.seam
[12:35pm] gliese581c: Title: Spectrum Dashboard - Reboot.FCC.gov (at reboot.fcc.gov)
[12:43pm] welterde: sigblips: /dev/urandom sorry ;)
[12:45pm] welterde: sigblips: archive.eso.org is hosted only a couple of 100m from that server btw(and shares the same connection to the DFN as that server) ;-)
[12:48pm] sigblips: Your download speeds should be a lot higher than 1 MB/sec. I'm going to do some tests and investigate.
[1:00pm] khrm left the chat room. (Quit: Page closed)
[1:57pm] jrseti_ left the chat room. (Remote host closed the connection)
There is undoubtedly a much, much vaster interest in participating actively in SETI than the meager postings on this forum suggest. Not necessarily in the form of actual lurkers, but in the form of people who have come to the website, thought "what a mess, I'm out of here" and then let it slip off their radar again.
However, I already expounded on this over a year ago. Here is an exact quote:
"... I guarantee you that there are hundreds or thousands more of them out there. You just never hear about it because you constantly gloss over the problem or pretend that it is someone else's fault."
This raises the question - why the interest in this 'hidden community' now, as opposed to over one year ago?
Not so much doing an 'I told you so' as genuinely wondering what is taking so long?
I'm speculating that the plan is:
1) Determine how many passive observers the setiQuest forum has.
2) Is this number significant enough to warrant action?
3) If it is then devise a plan to engage them and transform them into active participants.
While counting the number of 'passive observers' to the Seti Quest site, what would be of great interest is to count the number of readers that each thread has, and actually put that on the thread display, so one can judge what threads are the most popular.
This would be useful both to the Quest, which would determine which subjects were the most popular, and to the author to find out if his contributions actually get read.
That's a fine plan. Just wondering why it hasn't happened earlier. All the dilly-dallying has led a lot of folks who could have helped engage this 'passive community' to fade.