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Community Meeting 2012-05-08

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jrseti
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IRC chat on Tuesday! Join us may 08, 2012, 11am California time, 18:00GMT, for our weekly setiQuest IRC chat at irc://irc.freenode.net/#setiquest
Or in a browser: http://webchat.freenode.net/?channels=setiquest
Today's topic can be:

  1. What I've written about at http://setiquest.org/blog/future-setiquest
  2. After you read (1) do we want to make these meeting occur less often? Let's discuss.
  3. Khrm should discuss his http://setiquest.org/forum/topic/customised-distro-run-sonata

Any other ideas are appreciated.
 

-jrseti

sigblips
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[11:00am] jrseti_: Hello all!

[11:00am] jrseti_: Hello all! It is time for the setiquest IRC chat
[11:00am] sigblips: Welcome to the 83rd weekly setiQuest community IRC meeting. http://setiquest.org/wiki/index.php/Community_meeting#IRC_meeting_transc...
[11:00am] gliese581c`: Title: Community meeting - setiquest wiki (at setiquest.org)
[11:02am] jrseti_: See the agenda at http://setiquest.org/forum/topic/community-meeting-2012-05-08
[11:02am] gliese581c`: Title: Community Meeting 2012-05-08 | setiQuest (at setiquest.org)
[11:02am] jrseti_: As we discussed last week, i wrote up what i thought the immediate future of setiquest should be.
[11:03am] sigblips: 4) Broken buttons on all setiQuest Drupal pages. Donate and Flickr in particular but all of them could be changed to something more appropriate for the project.
[11:03am] jrseti_: I've been trying to figure out the Glossay link. It just seems the page is gone.
[11:04am] jrseti_: I rally do not like uasing Drupal. It is really complicated!
[11:04am] sigblips: Glossay link?
[11:04am] khrm: Glossary ?
[11:04am] jrseti_: Yes, Glossary
[11:05am] sigblips: Ohh thanks, I'm happy we disabled those glossary links last year. They were so annoying.
[11:05am] jrseti_: First, I'd like to talk about Khrm's forum post
[11:05am] jrseti_: http://setiquest.org/forum/topic/customised-distro-run-sonata
[11:05am] khrm: Ok.
[11:05am] gliese581c`: Title: Customised Distro to run Sonata | setiQuest (at setiquest.org)
[11:06am] jrseti_: He created a SonATA/OpenSUSE 11.4 distro
[11:06am] sigblips: I think that self-contained package is great a idea and I'm going to try it out.
[11:07am] jrseti_: Yes, and it should work in our Amazon account
[11:07am] khrm: Yes, it has all dependencies except sun-java which is non-osi compliant.
[11:07am] sigblips: Is that because of Java licensing?
[11:07am] khrm: Yes, it can be used for amazon ec2 also.
[11:07am] khrm: Yes, due to java licensing.
[11:08am] sigblips: Is there any reason why we need to be OSI compliant?
[11:08am] khrm: But sonata_pre command which is just a script take care of that.
[11:08am] jrseti_: I'll try it on Amazon. I assume I can redirect the XDisplay to my computer, right?
[11:08am] khrm: I donot know whether sun-java can be distributed freely.
[11:09am] jrseti_: I dont know either
[11:09am] sigblips: I guess the question is does any other Linux distribution do it?
[11:09am] khrm: jrseti I donot know about it, you might have to use vnc or some other thing.
[11:10am] khrm: No, sigblips, but they do keep it in their non oss repo.
[11:10am] sigblips: But do we?
[11:10am] jrseti_: No, we have them download it
[11:11am] sigblips: I mean, but do we need to do that?
[11:11am] jrseti_: I have no idea
[11:11am] khrm: I too have no idea.
[11:11am] sigblips: The reason I ask is because it would be really cool if we could make this a completely self contained Linux live-CD that we could hand out to people.
[11:12am] khrm: Yes.
[11:13am] sigblips: They would just pop the Linux live-CD into their x86_64 computer, reboot, and they are running SonATA in minutes.
[11:13am] jrseti_: Any idea how I'd use this to create an Amazon instance? When you create a new Amazon EC2 instance, does it let you use any distro, or download your own? I've only used the ones they provide.
[11:14am] Jill_ joined the chat room.
[11:14am] khrm: I will refine this distro further in summer. Currently a user have to clone the sonata after installing or booting using livecd.
[11:14am] jrseti_: Hello Jill.
[11:14am] Jill_: hello - sorry to be late
[11:14am] sigblips: It is the AWS AMI (Amazon Machine Image).
[11:14am] jrseti_: Jill: We are talking about http://setiquest.org/forum/topic/customised-distro-run-sonata
[11:14am] gliese581c`: Title: Customised Distro to run Sonata | setiQuest (at setiquest.org)
[11:14am] sigblips: Hi Jill. You can read what you've missed here http://irc.sigblips.com/setiQuest/2012/setiquest.05-08-2012.log
[11:15am] jrseti_: Khrm made a custom OpenSUSE/SonATA distribution
[11:15am] jrseti_: I am going to try it out on AWS this week
[11:15am] Jill_: has Jane been able to bring up SonATA with the version of linux that's on her new machine - maybe this will help
[11:16am] khrm: jrseti in http://susestudio.com/a/AabtPt/setiquest-desktop there is a cloud option.
[11:16am] gliese581c`: Title: Setiquest Desktop SUSE Gallery (at susestudio.com)
[11:16am] jrseti_: Khrm: Thanks, I'll lok at that
[11:16am] jrseti_: Khrm - thatnks for doing that
[11:17am] jrseti_: Jill: the agenda is at http://setiquest.org/forum/topic/community-meeting-2012-05-08
[11:17am] gliese581c`: Title: Community Meeting 2012-05-08 | setiQuest (at setiquest.org)
[11:18am] jrseti_: All: As I stated last week that I would do, I posted a blog http://setiquest.org/blog/future-setiquest
[11:18am] khrm: I have been meaning to do that for weeks but I have not been getting time. My exams have just finished. But I have practicals on 15-17. So I think I will be able to dedicate it more time.
[11:18am] gliese581c`: Title: The Future of setiQuest? | setiQuest (at setiquest.org)
[11:19am] jrseti_: Khrm: I'll let you know what happens
[11:20am] khrm: O.K. Even if it doesn't run now it , I think I will be able to run it after updating the setting further.
[11:20am] jrseti_: OK
[11:21am] sigblips: Should the new SonATA with all the SETI Live modifications still run the Voyager test demo the same way? Or have things changed a lot?
[11:22am] jrseti_: it will run the same
[11:22am] sigblips: Good to know. Thanks.
[11:22am] Jill_: one more reason for using the zooniverse infrastructure that's important to me is that they are focused on the end product being real scientific output and have developed an excellent 'talk' component to encourage that. they've got lot's of experience in dealing with visual biases of volunteers looking at data screens - we didn't want to have to learn that from scratch
[11:22am] jrseti_: yes
[11:22am] Jill_: jrseti: i meant that last to be an addition to your excellent blog
[11:23am] jrseti_: ok, thanks
[11:23am] Jill_: we should remember that there are still projects that can best be done under setiQuest structure and make it easy for people to find those
[11:23am] sigblips: jrseti_: I noticed that line 7) is blank. Was that intentional?
[11:24am] Jill_: i've not had time this week to explore whether we can aggregate discussion from all SETI groups onto this site.
[11:24am] jrseti_: The 7) line is a bug in the Drupal software. it does not show up it edit mode!
[11:25am] sigblips: Jill_: All SETI groups? TeamSETI and other SETI Institute web properties?
[11:27am] Jill_: no - i had suggested that this become a global SETI discussion portal, so SETI@home, SETI Italia, Dorothy etc. etc. to inform each other about what new ideas they were thinking about or trying, and to keep the archive of searches up to date
[11:28am] sigblips: That sounds like a good way to utilize the current setiQuest infrastructure.
[11:28am] jrseti_: FYI: I got rid of the 7)! Had to edit the raw HTML.
[11:28am] Jill_: reply --- since i haven't reached out, i don't know if i'll encounter a big NIH response.
[11:29am] khrm: I think we will have to improve the forum for that.
[11:30am] jrseti_: Jill: Yes, I remember. I think we could make a list on our site of all the other SETI projects. That would be a good start.
[11:32am] sigblips: On the front setiquest.org page, as a menu item, or would it be better in the wiki?
[11:32am] Jill_: with links to those projects
[11:33am] jrseti_: I's also make it into an RSS feed for setiquest.info
[11:35am] jrseti_: So, Jill, I think if you can get me your 2 year old list of SETI projects, I'll create one we can review.
[11:35am] jrseti_: Doug also has a list
[11:36am] jrseti_: What you you all think about making these meeting every other week?
[11:37am] sigblips: Another option would be to make them only 30 minutes.
[11:37am] jrseti_: 30 minutes is a good option!
[11:38am] khrm: That is better.
[11:38am] jrseti_: That would be asier for me to manage
[11:38am] khrm: I mean sigblips option.
[11:39am] jrseti_: Yes, 30 minutes is good
[11:40am] jrseti_: So, anything else? Was progress made here?
[11:40am] Jill_: jrseti - this list is here https://observations.seti.org/ with most recent page as #1
[11:40am] gliese581c`: Title: Observations: index (at observations.seti.org)
[11:41am] jrseti_: Jill: I've never seen that before.
[11:41am] Jill_: i don't know how to give you access to the observations pages to move - it is a Tucker special-built set of pages
[11:42am] sigblips: Are any observations scheduled for the future?
[11:42am] Jill_: i think Berkeley has future time at NRAO and of course we need to update our own Kepler obs
[11:43am] jrseti_: Sigblips: I bet that type of information will be hard to know. Maybe this is where people can keep us up to date using the forum.
[11:44am] sigblips: http://setiquest.info and SETI Live are doing an observation once a-day.
[11:44am] gliese581c`: Title: SetiQuest Info Service (at setiquest.info)
[11:45am] jrseti_: Yes!
[11:45am] Jill_: for obs being done using national facilities, that time is allocated well in advance and could easily be posted
[11:46am] jrseti_: We should create a list of these facilities
[11:47am] sigblips: Hmmm, encouraging them to share their data would be very much in the spirit of setiQuest.
[11:47am] jrseti_: We have to create a list first.
[11:49am] jrseti_: Anything else? Shall we end for today?
[11:50am] Jill_: my sense is that they might like to keep their data on their own site, but might allow us to point to it.
[11:50am] sigblips: Well that would be great too.
[11:51am] khrm: Where will be this posted in website , wiki or forum?
[11:51am] jrseti_: Just knowing they exist would be a good start
[11:52am] sigblips: khrm: Good question. Any of those 3 could work.
[11:52am] jrseti_: It would be constantly changing. It should be on the Wiki
[11:54am] jrseti_: I would, though, like to make an RSS of our SETI programs list, and all the URLs in the RSS frre point to our WiKi
[11:54am] sigblips: It looks like there are about 160 observations listed. Could do that as one large wiki page. I'm not sure if we have the "show" MediaWiki functionality installed. It's not needed but the page would just look bigger without it.
[11:55am] sigblips: jrseti_: Why an RSS list? This SETI programs list seems to me that it would be very static.
[11:56am] jrseti_: I think it could be one more but of information someone could use in an RSS feeder. Also, it will change occasionally.
[11:57am] jrseti_: To be honest: I like RSS and XML feeds, that is the biggest reason :)
[11:59am] sigblips: OK, I wonder if MediaWiki can automatically create an RSS feed for a particular wiki page?
[11:59am] jrseti_: I would think it can. Worth looking into
[11:59am] sigblips: Waldir would know.
[12:01pm] jrseti_: The hour is up. Thanks all for attending. Next week I'll announce a 30 minute meeting
[12:01pm] sigblips: Good meeting. Bye everyone. I'll post the transcript to the forum.
[12:01pm] khrm: Bye all.
[12:01pm] jrseti_: thanks, bye!
[12:02pm] khrm left the chat room. (Quit: Bye)
[12:02pm] jrseti_ left the chat room. (Remote host closed the connection)

a_feder
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Posts: 34
Real science

[11:22am] Jill_: one more reason for using the zooniverse infrastructure that's important to me is that they are focused on the end product being real scientific output and have developed an excellent 'talk' component to encourage that.

What makes any science that Zooniverse does any more "real" than any other science that might be done with real-time data from the ATA? Is it that they have a nice rubberstamp which makes anything they do True Science™? What prevents anyone from doing "unreal" science with the waterfall plots posted on SETILive?

Dave Robinson
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Posts: 196
Real-Time data?

Hi Anders

I am not quite sure why you want 'real-time' data from the ATA, when push comes to shove the data could have been in transit for 100's of years or more, so I am sure the delay of extracting the the data in the old fashioned way is not going to be too much of a problem.

My regret is there is not going to be ANY more data from the ATA made available, even if it takes months to move from the telescope to the cloud.

Whilst understanding the reason for instigating the SETILive exercise, I think that offering this as the ONLY way to join in the hunt for extraterrestrial intelligence is a real let down for real Citizen Scientist's, people who really know how to process signals (I am thinking of extraordinary people like Sigblips etc.). Looking for straight lines in a waterfall plot cannot really be considered a task for a real scientist, and the fact that the number of contributors are falling like a stone also suggests that 'Joe Public' find it as intellectually dissatisfying as me.

It appears that the Seti Institute has decreed that Aliens MUST communicate via beacons of fixed frequency, else we will not bother to look for them, they have left the very few people that have the capability of looking at other communication options buried in the signals, no where else to go. What a waste, such extraordinary talent given for free, and just dumped by the road side - not wanted on voyage

Regards

Dave Robinson

a_feder
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Waste indeed

"It appears that the Seti Institute has decreed that Aliens MUST communicate via beacons of fixed frequency, else we will not bother to look for them, they have left the very few people that have the capability of looking at other communication options buried in the signals, no where else to go. What a waste, such extraordinary talent given for free, and just dumped by the road side - not wanted on voyage"

I think this sums up the frustration that all of us (all of us outside of SI that is) feel about this 'project' very well.

The desire on my part (and I believe on Rob's and Sigblips' too) to have access to real-time data is that if we find anything in the archived data, the 'trail is cold', so to speak - we have no way of positively determining if it truly is a signal of extraterrestrial origin or if it is just noise or RFI. With real-time data and some kind of tightly controlled feedback loop into the SonATA system running at the ATA, we would not only be able to find signals using alternative approaches, we would also be able to follow-up on them to see if they are truly worthy of further scrutiny. 

jctarter
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Posts: 17
Thanks are due

Jon, in addition to thanking you for all the work you've put into the setiQuest site, we need to thank Erik Olson for managing the AWS resources, shielding us from spam and bots, and generally supporting this community effort, and to thank Michael Moradzadeh for his efforts to make the web site perform more efficiently and for his humorous contributions to the IRC chats.  You mentioned Avinash Agrawal, but didn't really thank him for his guidance and gardening.  Also we shouldn't forget Francis Potter and the Hathersage group who got setiQuest Explorer up and running and gave us the first experience with what volunteers would do with waterfall data.  We've also enjoyed the contributions of GSoC interns and REU students.  It's hard to start down this thank-you road, because deserving individuals will be left off due to my faulty memory.  So please, chime in and comment in order to offer thanks to all of those who have contributed, but haven't yet been named here.
Jill